Appending ID3 tags in parallel to APEv2

[jdoe]

Personally my tag editor of choice is foobar, primarily because of fast batch editing and bpm analysis. I also use r128gain to add ITU-R BS.1770 calculated replaygain tags. Because of this I always have to have in mind that before I add files to rboss library I need to tell foobar to store metadata in id3v1, id3v2.3 & apev2 - this isn't a problem at all!
Unfortunately everything goes wrong when I'm in need to change something in file(s) already added to rb library because when editing such file(s) in i.e. foobar it: a) doesn't show apev2 tags appended by rboss b) after saving tags within foobar those rb-specific are being brutally dropped
I assume that foobar handles metadata in a way, that in case of uncommon tags it shows only the ones, that are shared between different tag standards, though those tags are 100% present (i can see them in dBpoweramp's tag editor).

Now, when it comes to finding a remedy to such an issue it always ends with nasty workarounds since I do not find rboss built-in tag editor effective when doing mass edits. To conclude, I believe that the best (if possible) way would be to append tags in a way stated in the topic.

 

[djsoft]

If Foobar removes some fields from the APEv2 tag, I'm afraid that's nothing we can do about it - it's a problem with Foobar. You can contact them and ask about possible solutions - may be they have a plugin or some hidden option to change this behavior.

 

[jdoe]

Thanks for the reply!

You see, actually I do believe you can, and probably should do something to improve tag handling. Let me point this out:

• A fundamental point: after adding a mp3 file which contains only apev2, RBoss from itself is not recognizing literally any of the common tags (such as artist, title, date...). I thought this would be an obvious solution, to only use apev2 tags. Well, no. Why appending only apev2 when program utilizes only some tags - not all of them? Dmirty, with all my respect for your decent work - this is a bit messy, don't you think?
• This so-called problem with foobar is actually spread on almost all of tag editors I've recently tested (none of them was so usefull as f2k though). Not to mention this thread http://www.djsoft.net/smf/index.php/topic,3581.msg14104.html. The way editors handle multiple standards is quite rational to me.
• Sometimes after making any changes in metadata, RBoss removes id3v1 from few mp3 files even though they had a complete set of id3v1, id3v2.3 and apev2. Fortunately this is very very rare, I wasn't able to figure out any 'pattern' of such a behaviour. From the other hand, I don't find any reason to use id3v1, but it's just a habit of mine.
• Last, but not least, I would ask you a question: do you you have any plans, for the not so far future, to improve the metadata management in the RBoss, especially when speaking about mass editing?

Of course I will look for improvements everywhere.

 

[djsoft]

1. Yes, RadioBOSS currently only reads ID3 tag for artist/title information, and APE tag for additional information (playcount etc). This will be changed in RadioBOSS 5.2 - it will first try ID3 tag and then APE for artist/title information, if there's no ID3 tag present.

2. It is a problem. Tag editing software should not remove any tags. I fail to understand the reason why they remove any tag fields... It's incorrect, and I believe against the specification.

3. This should also be fixed in RadioBOSS 5.2.

4. I think so. What particular improvement you would like to see?

 

[jdoe]

Hey, pretty good news! Especially about prioritizing tag reading.

I'll start with things I like most about f2k:
[list type=decimal]
[*]When editing multiple files, I love the way foobar gives me choice to change particular tag to the same value for all files or just for one or some of them. I usually make use of this when adding rating info: first I give all files rate of 5 (without even hitting 'apply' button because this value is being stored on-the-fly), and then  I 'fine tune' the ratings. See first screenshot - it's really, really fast, cause I have visual clue which title I'm editing.
[*]The great and powerful feature 'Automatically fill values' which gives ability to treat tag values as variables (2nd screenshot). Of course you can still 'fine tune' final results! With this I can i.e. easily workaround Rboss's disability to use genres for playlist generation.
[*]Hints/autocomplete tags based on information being kept in media library (3rd screenshot). A must-have for those who want to keep consistency in their libraries.
[*]f2k can with one click capitalize all tag fields, clean them up (removes redundant spaces and overrides underscores with spaces), rename all files to names based on regular expressions and other geeky stuff (once again uses tags as variables) and finally, after installing a free plugin - bpm analysis for all/selected files.
[/list]
These tricks does not exist in RBoss, so naturally I'd gone crazy if you teach your baby some of them.

But, speaking 'bout RBoss's specific things:
[list type=decimal]
[*]When selecting multiple files in RBoss it shows me... empty fields. This is really confusing, especially when some of tags are common (4th screenshot). This is absolutely clueless - I don't know what to expect either when entering data or keeping the field 'clean'.
[*]Keeping 'Title' before 'Artist' field in 'Track Properties' window is inconsistent - in every other place they are shown in opposite order. I always start with filling artist name... Stronger than me haha
[*]Also I don't like that some marker values are relative to the end and some to the beginning of a song. It's confusing.
[*]BPM analysis in most cases is, gently speaking, incorrect. Would appreciate 'tap' button with shortkey.
[*]Oh my god, I completely forgot! It drives me mad how RBoss saves metadata in some strange, strange way (is it about encoding?) that it results in chinese characters in every single piece of software but RBoss... Really annoying...
[/list]
This is it (so far)

 

[djsoft]

Your suggestions about bulk tag editor noted. We'll consider adding some of those features in the future. Thanks!

About RB's tag editor.

1. This is by design. Fields which are empty will not be modified in target files. Only the fields you fill will be changed. This way you can, say, set album for all tracks while preserving artist/title and other info.

2. This is already fixed for the next release (the whole Track Tool module will be redesigned, actually).

3. It's how crossfade engine was working from the start (RadioBOSS exists for more than 11 years already by the way) - there's no way to change it as it will break backwards compatibility and update for most of the users will be a disaster. Generally speaking, all markers which are supposed to be at start of a track (like Intro, Fade In, etc) bind to start of a track. Fields like Fade Out, Mix, Outro are tied to the End.

4. Can you please give some examples? Probably send a track to support@djsoft.net

5. As I said before, the tag editor engine will be completely revamped in RB 5.2, this problem should go away.

 

[jdoe]

1. This is by design. Fields which are empty will not be modified in target files. Only the fields you fill will be changed. This way you can, say, set album for all tracks while preserving artist/title and other info.

I believe that from user perspective its more obvious to do it in f2ks way. See it on the pic - f2k is appending a 'prefix' to tags which are different per file and for those which are the same it basically prints them out. By this user is 100% sure that every single file is sharing ie the same artist and album name. Going back to multiple values, by double-click user is allowed to edit individual values or append every with a single value.

3. It's how crossfade engine was working from the start (RadioBOSS exists for more than 11 years already by the way) - there's no way to change it as it will break backwards compatibility and update for most of the users will be a disaster. Generally speaking, all markers which are supposed to be at start of a track (like Intro, Fade In, etc) bind to start of a track. Fields like Fade Out, Mix, Outro are tied to the End.

I perfectly understand, but thought rather about changing only values being shown, even giving user a choice (you know, keeping it unchanged under the hood).

4. Can you please give some examples? Probably send a track to support@djsoft.net

I'm not sure if sending music files would be legal... I'll just paste yt links for the safety sake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsAr_bi0lCI (RBoss: 165 bpm, f2k: 124 bpm, mixmeister bpm analyzer: 124 bpm)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkChlomnsG4 (RBoss: 76 bpm, f2k: 115 bpm, mixmeister bpm analyzer: 114.99 bpm)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v0XvIuj4yQ (RBoss: 59 bpm, f2k: 118 bpm, mixmeister bpm analyzer: 118.01 bpm)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1TbI44oRtE (RBoss: 113 bpm, f2k: 85 bpm, mixmeister bpm analyzer: 85.01 bpm)
I quickly noticed that it is really incorrect for most files. It's not uncommon to show half of the correct tempo.
BTW, forgive me not opening a new thread, but let's just continue speaking 'bout bpms - playlist generator pro has a bug in finding files by bpm conditions (please look now at 4 numered pics attached to this post and then continue reading). When entering 99 instead of 100 pgp selects 2352 files. I've counted - it should choose exactly 653 files. It seems correct when selecting 100-200 though (52 files are missing)... BUT, when trying to select 0-200 it behaves like 100-200 condition... Finally, 99-200 condition (actually [20-99]-200) ends with finding 0 files...

2. This is already fixed for the next release (the whole Track Tool module will be redesigned, actually).
5. As I said before, the tag editor engine will be completely revamped in RB 5.2, this problem should go away.

 

[djsoft]

I believe that from user perspective its more obvious to do it in f2ks way. See it on the pic - f2k is appending a 'prefix' to tags which are different per file and for those which are the same it basically prints them out. By this user is 100% sure that every single file is sharing ie the same artist and album name. Going back to multiple values, by double-click user is allowed to edit individual values or append every with a single value.

Probably, but I think we'll stay with RadioBOSS's way for now. It can do what it's designed for: change one or more properties for multiple files. And it also more clear - you see that empty fields are unchanged. The UI is not cluttered with ?multiple values? entries.

I perfectly understand, but thought rather about changing only values being shown, even giving user a choice (you know, keeping it unchanged under the hood).

Do you want everything to be tied to the beginning of a file? I don't think many users will like it this way. When Outro is "30 seconds before end of file" it's more clear than "Outro starts 233 seconds after the beginning"... or I didn't understand the idea completely.

I'm not sure if sending music files would be legal... I'll just paste yt links for the safety sake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsAr_bi0lCI (RBoss: 165 bpm, f2k: 124 bpm, mixmeister bpm analyzer: 124 bpm)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkChlomnsG4 (RBoss: 76 bpm, f2k: 115 bpm, mixmeister bpm analyzer: 114.99 bpm)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v0XvIuj4yQ (RBoss: 59 bpm, f2k: 118 bpm, mixmeister bpm analyzer: 118.01 bpm)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1TbI44oRtE (RBoss: 113 bpm, f2k: 85 bpm, mixmeister bpm analyzer: 85.01 bpm)

OK - the BPM detection algo will be checked. It also looks like Foobar and MIxmeister use the same thing to deetct BPM as their values are the same...

BTW, forgive me not opening a new thread, but let's just continue speaking 'bout bpms - playlist generator pro has a bug in finding files by bpm conditions (please look now at 4 numered pics attached to this post and then continue reading). When entering 99 instead of 100 pgp selects 2352 files. I've counted - it should choose exactly 653 files. It seems correct when selecting 100-200 though (52 files are missing)... BUT, when trying to select 0-200 it behaves like 100-200 condition... Finally, 99-200 condition (actually [20-99]-200) ends with finding 0 files...

Playlist Generator reads only tag written by RadioBOSS (the "BPM" field in APEv2 tag). If the BPM value resides somewhere else, it will not be considered. That's why it may look like that filter does not work correctly.

 

[jdoe]

Probably, but I think we'll stay with RadioBOSS's way for now. It can do what it's designed for: change one or more properties for multiple files. And it also more clear - you see that empty fields are unchanged. The UI is not cluttered with ?multiple values? entries.

Ok.

Do you want everything to be tied to the beginning of a file? I don't think many users will like it this way. When Outro is "30 seconds before end of file" it's more clear than "Outro starts 233 seconds after the beginning"... or I didn't understand the idea completely.

Maybe you're right? I need to rethink it  :

OK - the BPM detection algo will be checked. It also looks like Foobar and MIxmeister use the same thing to deetct BPM as their values are the same...

It's also almost the same with my own counting (within the interval of 15 seconds, and then with value multiplied by 4)

Playlist Generator reads only tag written by RadioBOSS (the "BPM" field in APEv2 tag). If the BPM value resides somewhere else, it will not be considered. That's why it may look like that filter does not work correctly.

Well, that's too bad cause... ALL of my files are id3v1, id3v2.3, apev2 tagged, and the bpm values are clearly shown in rboss's track properties bpm field (not to mention music database).  Your explanation is not convincing

 

[djsoft]

It's also almost the same with my own counting (within the interval of 15 seconds, and then with value multiplied by 4)

Hmm... The BPM detector will be fine-tuned in the next update, but I don't think there will be a lot of improvement actually. It currently uses SoundTouch library to detect - probably we'll have to find another way to automatically detect BPM (e.g. create own implementation).

Well, that's too bad cause... ALL of my files are id3v1, id3v2.3, apev2 tagged, and the bpm values are clearly shown in rboss's track properties bpm field (not to mention music database).  Your explanation is not convincing

That's interesting. If RadioBOSS and Musci Library shows BPM value, then Playlist Generator should also correctly read and use it. Possible problem there if your BPM values have decimal part, e.g. "140.12" (not just "140"). I'll add it to the list of possible bugs.

 

[jdoe]

That's interesting. If RadioBOSS and Musci Library shows BPM value, then Playlist Generator should also correctly read and use it. Possible problem there if your BPM values have decimal part, e.g. "140.12" (not just "140"). I'll add it to the list of possible bugs.

I suspected that this was causing the problem, but you can clearly see on previously attached screenshots that PGP chose 4 files ranging from 0 to 100 bpm, even though in music library I have at least plenty of ie. integer 95 values (of course there are much more).

 

[djsoft]

This is added to the list of bugs. I'll let you know if this is fixed or more information is required on the issue.

 

[jdoe]

Do you want everything to be tied to the beginning of a file? I don't think many users will like it this way. When Outro is "30 seconds before end of file" it's more clear than "Outro starts 233 seconds after the beginning"... or I didn't understand the idea completely.

Maybe you're right? I need to rethink it  :

Ok, I got my drift once again now. Look at the attached pic - since the 'end' marker is relative to the beginning of a song I'm loosing information of how long would actual mix/fade out time will be (they are tied to the 'absolute end' of a song). Actually that was the main and only thing I had in mind ;-)

This is added to the list of bugs. I'll let you know if this is fixed or more information is required on the issue.

Many thanks!

 

[jdoe]

]Ok, I got my drift once again now. Look at the attached pic - since the 'end' marker is relative to the beginning of a song I'm loosing information of how long would actual mix/fade out time will be (they are tied to the 'absolute end' of a song). Actually that was the main and only thing I had in mind ;-)

Of course, this also applies to 'start' marker and fade in.

 

[djsoft]

OK, got it. The Track Tool will display this information somewhere. I've added it to the list of RB 5.2 features.

 

[djsoft]

This is added to the list of bugs. I'll let you know if this is fixed or more information is required on the issue.

As promised, while checking this bug it was confirmed and fixed. The fix will be published in the next update. Thanks for reporting this bug!

 

[jdoe]

This is added to the list of bugs. I'll let you know if this is fixed or more information is required on the issue.

As promised, while checking this bug it was confirmed and fixed. The fix will be published in the next update. Thanks for reporting this bug!

Loving good news <3 (once again sorry for posting this in wrong thread, wrong board, though...)

 

[djsoft]

Loving good news <3 (once again sorry for posting this in wrong thread, wrong board, though...)

It's OK here