Crossfading

[Chris Diack]

Thank you for a great program.  

I wish to clarify your crossfading parameters.  

The mix point; is the numerical value a db value, a time value, or what?  

The reason for asking; if it is time based, that is 1,7 (as illustrated in RadioBoss overview screenshot 4 of 7) then audio files which have a long fade will crosfade significantly differently from those which have a cold finish, whereas if it is db level based then all tracks will crossfade at the same audio level on fading, and segueing to the next audio track... a much more logical approach IMHO.

Is there a facility to automate the location of fade points by audio level in RadioBoss?  

Thank you again.

Chris in New Zealand

 

[djsoft]

All crossfade values are time values (in seconds mostly).
The values which you set in RadioBOSS, on the screenshot you mentioned, are applied for tracks which doesn't have crossfade values set ("global" values).
But you can set crossfade parameters for each track individually, this will override global settings.

The idea to determine fade points based on dB levels is good, but I'm not sure if it will work OK for most music tracks... We should also take into account average level of track - this will require pre-scanning, and finally will delay the start of track (for several seconds on slow machines). Have you seen such a feature in any other software?

 

[Chris Diack]

Yes... if you like, I'll contact you privately as I believe it's unfair to be discussing the relative merits of someone else's software when your success is dependent on marketing RadioBoss Automation products. 

Feel free to contact me. 

What is the best way of setting up a private dialogue?

I have been working with many automation systems since the late 90's and have been in the industry since 1974.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Chris-Diack/100000248474331

I'm delighted that you are interested enough in my comments to discuss the suggestions I have made,

 

[djsoft]

You're right about it.
I think Facebook will do OK - let's continue there.

 

[radium98]

hey  chris diack i am glad to see in this marvelous forum ,and also in this special thread i know about what u are talking sir djsoft chris diack is asking about the free plugin i sent to u to incorporate in radioboss and btw take a look about


TRIGGER end of song if more than 15 seconde of silence detected
this idea work perfect with other shareware product if u need more help i will pm u

 

[djsoft]

TRIGGER end of song if more than 15 seconde of silence detected
this idea work perfect with other shareware product if u need more help i will pm u

RadioBOSS cuts out silence at the beginning and end of track automatically, that means, silence is not a problem.

I don't think we should use some 3rd party plugins in RadioBOSS for crossfading, as this may affect stability.

 

[radium98]

AS u like sir u know more than me about coding and stability of RADIOBOSS.But i am a tester i can see errors and tell u to make it more pro , for songs that have cool finish u can only put an option that only trigger end of song if more than x seconde of silence detected very good idea .i have test it for same cool end song in radioboss and SXX BXXXXXXXR

 

[djsoft]

AS u like sir u know more than me about coding and stability of RADIOBOSS.But i am a tester i can see errors and tell u to make it more pro , for songs that have cool finish u can only put an option that only trigger end of song if more than x seconde of silence detected very good idea .i have test it for same cool end song in radioboss and SXX BXXXXXXXR

Maybe I don't understand something... But, RadioBOSS will trigger end of song if there's a silence at the end (and at the beginning, too).
I.e. you can add, say, 60 seconds of silence to the end of track using some audio editor. Save it and play in RadioBOSS - it will cut out this silence, and you'll see no difference between original track and track with silence. It will end at the same point.
You can even specify the dB level - everything below will be considered as silence. It's in Playback settings -> Miscellaneous, "Remove gap between tracks".

 

[radium98]

sir i am ok with u u are right i tried this before i think i cant explain the idea for u i will try a solution and tell u by pm i will upload a song and show what i mean .

 

[djsoft]

Yes, please send an example track with description how it should be played, and how it's played by RadioBOSS. Thanks.

 

[DJSTU]

Mixing and Crossfading.
I am going to supply this advice on the basis that you have created a product which I assume it is your wish to improve way beyond what it is now, thereby selling more and more to an increasing customer base with word of mouth recommendations because it is so good ? Yes, well its on this basis that I proffer this advice.
You may be offended by what I have to say, but I can only tell you that you need to do heaps better in respect to certain aspects of Radioboss (of which this topic is one). Whether you heed this advice is entirely up to you.

I worked out that that I chuck out 98% of trial software that I download. Most software is poor quality rubbish and just doesn't perform the task that the sales pitch says it will. And I certainly NEVER buy any software that I can't pre-try, because its just too chancy of it being no good.
Now your software falls somewhere in the middle. I can see it has potential with further development and changes, hence my sitting here writing this.
Would I use it right now, well the answer is no, not really. It just isn't at a point where I feel its good enough, there's too many rough patches still to be ironed out.

Right now I can only describe your Radioboss mixing and crossfading as ghastly and crude.
It meets only a very basic standard, and isn't good enough to take your product to a higher quality stage which you need to seriously consider if you want first class development. Doing mixing by time based standards is just NOT the way to go. Forget that way and move on.

You need to have:
(1) Global standards based on db levels, in order to cater for tracks which don't have any pre-loaded instructions as to Mixing Point/s etc embedded into them. Plus a silence detector to cater for tracks with dead air at either end, but don't have the silence detector hidden away in preferences for goodness sake! Have it right up front in the Crossfades View, its far to important to have to hunt it out in some obscure place, like Miscellaneous.
Global should go null where Radioboss detects embedded mix points, but jump in where it isn't.

(2) A TrackTool which does way more than one song at a time.
If I have a thousand tracks, I don't want to sit there all week doing them all one at a time!
TrackTool needs to automatically process all the tracks setting the mixing points based on user preference db levels.
Songs need to start at the start, not part way in. Its more important the dead air is cut, not the start of a song. And the same goes for the end. Starts and Ends are a waste of time because they ruin a natural flow in and flow out and make a song sound chopped at the start and chopped at the finish. Much better to flow in and flow out.
The need most of all is for a mixing point and Intro's/Outro's, plus,
TrackTool also needs to trim dead air off both ends of the track, but not so that it cuts any music out at all. I use levels of -40db for the start and -50db for the end. If you are talking over a track, you don't want it chopping into the start or out at the finish
Intro's and Outro's have to be done manually, theres no way out of that one, they have to be done one by one.
Fade Ins and Fade Outs, Starts and Ends can possibly be useful, however mostly not, if songs have dreadful starts/finishes you usually edit them out.
(3) I do like the fact that you can treat Commercials, Jingles, Promo's separately, plus say News. Time based is useless for these items. They always need manually placed points in them. With the option of having ZERO points for say News as an example.

 

[djsoft]

Thanks for posting! Posts like this is what drives our development
I know that crossfades in RadioBOSS very far from perfect, and we work on improving it.

Now, couple of questions:

1) Silence detector (which removes silence from beginning and end of track) is "On" by default, and new user have no need to search this in the Settings. The results of its work are located on the FX tab. I think, a button like "Edit silence trimmer settings" there will be OK.
Or, do someone need to regularly adjust its settings?

2) You tell about "preloaded" crossfade instructions and that mixing by time is not an option. I have a question: how should we store the preloaded crossfade settings (if we don't store the time points)?
Or you mean we shouldn't use time values only for "global" settings?

About Track Tool - it was introduced souple of months ago, and contains only basic functions for now. Some kind of "mix editor" is already planned (something like you posted here http://www.djsoft.net/smf/index.php/topic,978.msg4315.html#msg4315) and soon it'll appear in Beta section.

 

[DJSTU]

Thanks for posting! Posts like this is what drives our development

I am pleased you have taken my comments so positively. I certainly am prepared to help particularly if we both end up with a product that performs exceedingly well.

I think, a button like "Edit silence trimmer settings" there will be OK.

A nice simple button placed there, right beside the silence readouts in FX tab would be absolutely fine. I cannot see any problems in the button taking you direct into the Preferences/Playback/Miscellaneous area for any necessary adjustments.  Silence detection is not something you would use continually day-in day-out, BUT its necessary to fiddle with to fine tune after installing RB, or perhaps in say a new Music import/library.

How should we store the preloaded crossfade settings (if we don't store the time points)?
Or you mean we shouldn't use time values only for "global" settings?

Don't use the time values AT ALL. Replace all the time values with Global default minus db values. You will achieve a much better result. Global results are just there to process those files that don't have their own embedded mixing results. Now that you have introduced TrackTool the need for a Global system will decrease once libraries are updated.

About Track Tool - contains only basic functions for now.

Make Track Tool a separate operation. By all means link to it, but have it separate. You should set RB up so as to take Editing functions away from and separate from the Main On-Air screen. On-air should be used for that purpose only, and not try to be a "lets do everything here screen", plus access should be made available to TrackTool from a separate workstation for not only separation, but more than one person doing work. I don't like quoting other systems on your web site, but then I also say why not pluck the best ideas from these other systems to integrate them into yours. For instance ZaraRadio/ZaraStudio has 4 auxillary screens built especially for doing everything just like the main screen, but what i like about them is that it keeps extra work/editing (using TrackTool for instance) completely right away from the main player and doesn't interfere. I think its worth considering.

Some kind of "mix editor" is already planned (something like you posted here http://www.djsoft.net/smf/index.php/topic,978.msg4315.html#msg4315)

Take this step by step and progress it slowly. You don't have to be like Dalet to start off with, but if you end up there like their Mix Editor, that would be absolutely wonderful. Their Mix Editor is probably one of the best around. Also you don't have to use Waveforms, use Blue and Green bars instead, red inserts (especially if it uses less resources), even Dalet gives you several options on what graphics you want to use...its not just waveforms they use. They even have just bare basic lines (outline type lines)
Something that isn't obvious from the picture is that Mix Editor will record on the fly....you can listen on headphones to the tracks playing whilst at the same time recording your voice going over the top (and hearing your voice too thru the headphones). Then when finished you can make adjustments to ducking/fade-in and fade-out, end off and start off, ducking time-in time-out, and also move the voice track file 9and music tracks) to suit in the mix. But not only voice tracking but drag and drop Promos and Sweepers, Jingles etc in and do the same thing. But as I said before, progress gradually into upgrading your mix editor and don't attempt to try and get it to do all that Dalet does on your initial attempts. As users I am sure we would be happy with a lot less to start off with.

 

[djsoft]

Don't use the time values AT ALL.

I got your point about Global crossfade settings, and agree that it should be in dB values.
The question was - how to store individual crossfade parameters for one specific track when using Track Tool?

Make Track Tool a separate operation.

It's already a separate program and don't interfere much with player. You can call it from playlist, or, you can open Music Library and edit track info from there. If something will go wrong with Music Library or Track tool (crash, hang up, etc), it won't do anything to broadcasting.

I agree about Mix Editor. Features will be added "one by one" and then tested, then some more features, etc.

 

[DJSTU]

I got your point about Global crossfade settings, and agree that it should be in dB values.

This is really good news. You will end up with a much better product as a result.

The question was - how to store individual crossfade parameters for one specific track when using Track Tool?

This is where the great debate starts. There are those that argue that the best place for settings is to be stored is in a database and those that say they should be embedded in the music track.
BUT embedding in a music track means that all files have to be scanned for information to achieve a certain activity, and, worse when you achieve a certain quantum of music tracks then procedures start to take longer and longer. A small number of tracks, yes fine, a large number, no, just too slow. So my advice to you would be to start a database system, but this will mean some more work for you ! Plus if you make any changes to querying and structure, then you will need to provide users with a means of migrating to the new database as changes occur.
And you will need to write structure, select, inserts, delete, queries, update etc from your software to interact with the database. BUT my recommendation after having given this considerable thought (and also discussion with other colleagues to ascertain their thinking on same) is go with the database because the advantages outweigh the disadvantages strongly.
The top Databases suggested are MySql (free) or Sybase 12 (requires a developers licence). Both of these are very flexible products and are the latest developments available.
Using databases will give you the ability to provide a much stronger product and will enable you to achieve much more enchanced directions of where I am sure you want RB to end up as highly sophisticated product.
Now, a colleague of mine has offered to provide you (via me) a radio automation database for you to consider using in RB and which will be written in MySql. Let me know if you would like me to send you this. Its way more elaborate than you possibly need at this stage, but you can grow into it more as you change RB. There's no cost to you for this.

It's already a separate program.

I don't think you are understanding where I'm at with this. So let me explain further. Its only separate in the sense you can sub call it from playlist, or, the Music Library on its own. What I would like to see is it being accessible from there certainly, but additionally being able to be used totally outside RB completely. In other words RB isn't started up at all, you are able to click on TrackTools.exe and then select a database, folder on which to do work, that is, it doesn't need RB to be running to use.

 

[djsoft]

Using databases will give you the ability to provide a much stronger product and will enable you to achieve much more enchanced directions of where I am sure you want RB to end up as highly sophisticated product.
Now, a colleague of mine has offered to provide you (via me) a radio automation database for you to consider using in RB and which will be written in MySql. Let me know if you would like me to send you this. Its way more elaborate than you possibly need at this stage, but you can grow into it more as you change RB. There's no cost to you for this.

Thanks for offer, but I think for now we'll store additional track info in the track itself. 2 years ago we already had an experimental version of RadioBOSS (called RadioBOSS Pro) which used database engine (Firebird) to store track info. It was a hell for support. Some people were unable to install the DB server; sometimes RB was unable to connect to it for some weird reasons; firewalls blocked connection; other programs using Firebird messing with server config; and many many other problems...
It's not required to scan all tracks everytime we need, say, get all tracks with "Playcount >= 100". Just make some cache (using DB engine without server) and synchronize it with info we have in tracks. That's not hard to do and much more reliable.

I don't think you are understanding where I'm at with this. So let me explain further. Its only separate in the sense you can sub call it from playlist, or, the Music Library on its own. What I would like to see is it being accessible from there certainly, but additionally being able to be used totally outside RB completely. In other words RB isn't started up at all, you are able to click on TrackTools.exe and then select a database, folder on which to do work, that is, it doesn't need RB to be running to use.

You can run Music Library from the Start menu, and then call Track Tool from there - it doesn't require RadioBOSS to be started.
I think we will also include Track Tool as a separate tool which can be started from Start menu too.

 

[Chris Diack]

[I think we will also include Track Tool as a separate tool which can be started from Start menu too.

Good idea

Chris in New Zealand

 

[Chris Diack]

Regarding crossfading at a -dB point ('n' being a numerical value) at the end of an audio track, may I offer a couple of observations:

In RadioBoss's Settings/Preferences/Playback/Miscellaneous/Remove gap between track, I believe it would simplify the whole development of the crossfade at - dB point, by utilizing the algorithm used in the gap remover to set the crossfade point, that is, if it hasn't already been considered.

With regard to the existing gap remover, it would be most desirable, I believe to have the Start of Track sense to be configured independent of the End of Track sense.

That way, audio material sourced from older analogue master recordings which have surface noise/tape hiss at the start of the remastered digital recordings could have their incoming threshold set differently from more recent digital recordings which usually have a different threshold for the purposes of silence sensing.

Many recent digital recordings have pure digital silence (as many will realise), and many older recordings, like I have in my CD collection from the 1960's have been taken from vynil, due to no masters being available.

Moral of the story, old recordings need to be dealt with differently than current recordings.

Theres a lot more discussion could be had regarding the relative merits of editing all your audio so there's no perceivable silence at the start of each track, but thats a discussion for another day and forum.

 

[djsoft]

Yes, separate dB values for Start and End of track will be added, there were many requests regarding it.
For crossfading, of course we will calculate silence and crossfade times in one run (and Autoamp prescan will be done there, too ). No need to scan file more than one time.

I don't think there should be something special for old records. All this "automatic" stuff is designed for new tracks. Old records can be prepared manually - results will be much better.

 

[radium98]

now the gap killer work perfect i test it deeply the best gap killer that remove exact silence from begining and end ,only add to this option a trigger time .btw i emailed djsoft for songs exemple it was 5 days ago plz check ure pm thanks.